Rebuttal to Agniveer/Satyagni: Islam and idol worship


بِسۡمِ ٱللهِ ٱلرَّحۡمَـٰنِ ٱلرَّحِيمِ

by Sulaiman Razvi

Read the main article Do Muslims Worship the Kaaba or the Black Stone?

AGNIVEER WROTE:

When Muslims are asked that why they bow towards Kaba, kiss it, and circumambulate it and thus do same with Kaba stone what any idolater does to his idol, they give few excuses to show that they don’t worship the Kaba stone. For example

1. We don’t worship Kaba. We worship only Allah.

2. Kaba is only direction. It is not idol. We bow towards this direction for unity. We bow towards Kaba we don’t bow to Kaba!

3. No Muslim thinks of Kaba stone as God/creator. But Hindus think of their idols as Gods and creator.

4. At the time of Muhammad, people used to stand on Kaba and give Adhan. Which idol worshipper can do this to his idol?

5. O Hindus! Why to bow down to idols when it can neither benefit you nor harm you?

We have debunked these arguments way back thoroughly. We proved that though Muslims allege Hindus to be idolaters but they themselves are idol worshippers as well as human worshippers.

 

RESPONSE:

The so called ‘Detailed Analysis’ is refuted here https://theindianmuslim.wordpress.com/2015/06/23/rebuttal-to-agniveer-kaaba-idol-worship-2/

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

What is worship?

Is there any universal definition of worship? No. There cant be. Simply because worship is the matter b/w worshipper and worshipped alone. It is none of any other’s business to force his definition of worship down the throat of others. I love God. When I worship, it is b/w me and my God. It is up to me what I say to God or with which feelings, words, and rituals I remember Him. Whether I praise Him or get angry at Him, its my choice. When we have all rights to love, get angry, get disagree with our parents, who can deny the same rights to me with my God who is my ultimate parent? Who the hell any human/agent/prophet is to teach me how should I remember my mother? Why should I borrow his words, feelings, rituals to remember my mother? Don’t I possess my own feelings and words? Only a moron will beg for the words and feelings from outside to remember his dearest one!

Muslims err at this point itself. They consider worship as yet another military practice that cant be carried out without proper (again definition of proper is as per their standards, not universal) dress, parade, words, and actions etc. Now first they militarize the worship and then start labeling others as not being appropriate with their “worship” and then force them towards their own style of worshipping. They think that God can understand only few words uttered in Arabic in the name of worship that too as taught by Muhammad. If someone uses different words/language, Allah will not count that worship and he will be shown the path of eternal hell at judgment night. Does all this look divine at all?

 

RESPONSE:

Is this called a definition of worship? ” I love God. When I worship, it is b/w me and my God…. Whether I praise Him or get angry at Him, it’s my choice” I thought he was going to tell us the definition of worship as per Vedas (as the pretend to believe only in Vedas) but rather he went on expressing his choices. He then said ” Who the hell any human/agent/prophet is to teach me how should I remember my mother” Does Agniveer means to say that the Vedic prayer was taught to him divinely by Ishwar himself? He must have learned it from his teacher who got information from his scriptures which were revealed to Rishis (as they say), Similarly we Muslims were unaware of the true prayer and it was taught by Prophet  because the people were unaware how to worship Allah SWT correctly. ” They consider worship as yet another military practice that cant be carried out without proper (again definition of proper is as per their standards, not universal) dress, parade, words, and actions etc

Worship (Ibadat) means asking god for forgiveness, humility, remembrance of God, praising God, glorifying God, thanking God… The prostration, bowing down, Standing etc all has wisdom behind them

1.Standing (Qiyam)

First, we stand, raise our hands and say Allahu akbar (Allah is the greatest). Thus, man throws everything except Allah behind his back and becomes subject to His order and will. Servitude and slavery are registered like that. Thus, the worshipping of all of the beings is represented.   

2. Bowing Down (Ruku)

After praising Allah as He deserves, man feels so weak in the presence of that loftiness that he bows down to show it and lowers his head as a sign of respect and says ‘Subhana Rabbiyal-Azim (Glorious is my Lord, the Great). The believer represents the worshipping of all beings that bow down by doing so.   

3. Supplication (Dua)

Then, he straightens up, and thanks and praises Allah because He guided him to the right path. For a moment, he contemplates, while standing, the loftiness and grandeur of Allah and the simplicity and meanness of his act, then, he becomes terrified and appalled.

4. Prostration (Sajdah)

He prostrates and puts his forehead down feeling the modesty and weakness fully and says,

‘Subhana Rabbiyal-Ala (Glorious is my Lord, the Highest).

5. Sitting And Salutation

After repeating those acts in a series, he finds himself directly in the presence of Allah without any intermediaries and asks help from Him.

When two beings meet, a salutation takes place between them. In one part of the prayer (sitting), the person who prays repeats the same expressions of salutation that took place between Hazrat Muhammad (pbuh) and Allah during Miraj (ascension): (Source)


If someone uses different words/language, Allah will not count that worship and he will be shown the path of eternal hell at judgment night. Does all this look divine at all?

 If you embrace the religion then can’t you memorize few verses of the holy Qur’an, Is it so hard for Agniveer to memorize few verses? this maybe the reason why there are no memorizer of Vedas but Memorizers of Qur’an can be found in thousands.

If a non-Arab convert is not able to recite the Qur’an and other parts of the salat in Arabic immediately after becoming Muslim, then there are differences of opinions in what he should do. According to the opinions of Imam Abu Yusuf (ra) and Imam Muhammad (ra) – two great disciples of Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) – such a person can translate them in his language and read them in salat. But he must immediately start learning to be able to make the salat in Arabic. Imam Abu Hanifa (ra) at first had the opinion that even if one is able to recite in Arabic, it is still acceptable for him to make salat in a non-Arabic language. But he later withdrew this opinion and accepted the opinions of his two great disciples – Imam Abu Yusuf (ra) and Imam Muhammad (ra). According to Imam Shaffi (ra), under no circumstances can salat be made in a language other than Arabic. If a person is unable to recite the Arabic words, then at least he should say a few brief words in the salat, such as ”Subhanallah” or ”Alhamdulillah”, etc., but should soon start learning to make salat in Arabic. (For further research in this matter, see the famous explanatory volume of the “Hidaya” book called “Fathul Qadi”, vol. I, pp. 199-201; “Al Mabsut” by Imam Sarakhsi, vol. I, p. 37; and “Kashful Asrar” by Bazdabi, p. 25). (Source)

Does Agniveer mean we can read Vedas in other language, then why do those guys keep saying Fake translation even to their Maharishi’s translation, Why did Ishwar taught such a horrible language to Rishis which cannot be translated literally into other languages?


Now first they militarize the worship and then start labeling others as not being appropriate with their “worship” and then force them towards their own style of worshipping” If the Islamic way of worship is a military practice then what is the Vedic worship?

Rig Veda 1.176.4 Slay everyone who pours no gift, who, hard to reach, delights thee not. Bestow on us what wealth he hath: this even the worshipper awaits.

Rig Veda 1.113. 11 God, Sovran of the Wood, present this our oblation to the Gods,And let the giver be renowned.

Is Ishwar celebrating his birthday on daily basis that he needs gifts?

Manu Smriti 4:145 … and, untired, daily offer oblations in the fire.

[Devi Chand] Yajur Veda  1.22 I fully harness the yajna for the attainment of happiness and material prosperity. This oblation is put into the fire, which expands, reaches in the middle region of the sun and moon and produces food-stuff.

Now what is this worship called? Cooking Practise? The Arya Samajis/Hindus are playing the key role in increasing the Global Warming by cremating their corpses and cutting trees for many Yajnas (Sacrifices).

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

What is an idol?

Is there any standard definition of idol? From rational perspective, yes. Idol is a material object that is used to perform rituals in prayers by anyone. It can be anything that is tangible. For example, a statue, a picture, a stone, books, etc. To some extent, according to some theologians, even intangible things like figures of speech can be idols as well, but we restrict ourselves to tangible things. So idol is anything concrete we can touch and see. Different idols have different reasons behind them, but they do not matter at this moment. Examples of idols are the Murtis and pictures of Hindu deities, the statue of Buddha, statue of Jesus, and Kaaba in mecca. All these examples are idols because they all have one thing in common, which is that they can be seen, touched and are used during performing rituals in prayers.

But with this our Muslim friends don’t agree. To them, every stone, except Kaba, in the world, used to perform rituals like bowing etc is an idol. They will call stones of Hindu temples, Christian Churches, Buddhist temples etc as idols but refuse to accept that Kaba is also an idol. We want to ask them what their definition of idol is and why that should be accepted universally? What is wrong in our definition other than that it does not match with that of Quran?

 

RESPONSE:

My definition of Idol is very similar to that of others, The reason why we don’t believe the Holy Kaba to be an Idol is because we don’t believe the Kaba to be God almighty. Believing that some Idol/Stone has the non bestowed power to benefit us is Idol worship because we believe Idols and stones which are worshiped by Idolators cannot help us[2], or asking that Idol hoping it help you by itself besides Allah is Idol worship[3] , bowing FOR the idol with the intention of worshiping it is Idol worship[4], glorifying the idol is idol worship, believing that it has divinity is Idol Worship or believing Allah has bestowed Divinity in it is Idol worship because Allah does not bestow divinity to any of his creation[5], these are my definitions for Idol and Idol worship, many Muslims may accept this definition and this is also similar to the definition given by Hindu scholars

 

Though the image is worshipped, the devotee feels the presence of the Lord in it and pours out his devotion unto it.…When you worship an image, you do not say: “This image has come from Jaipur. It was brought by Prabhu Singh. Its weight is 50 lbs. It is made of white marble. It has cost me Rs. 500/-.” You superimpose all the attributes of the Lord on the image and pray: “OAntaryamin (Inner Ruler)! You are all-pervading. You are omnipotent, omniscient, all-merciful. You are the source for everything. You are self-existent. You are Sat-Chit-Ananda. You are eternal, unchanging. You are the Life of my life, Soul of my soul! Give me light and knowledge! Let me dwell in Thee for ever.” When your devotion and meditation become intense and deep, you do not see the stone image. You behold the Lord only who is Chaitanya. Image-worship is very necessary for beginners…For a beginner, Pratima is an absolute necessity. By worshipping an idol, Isvara is pleasedEven so, the Lord is highly pleased when a small portion of His Virat (cosmic) body is worshipped. An idol is a part of the body of the Lord. The whole world is His body, Virat form. The devotion goes to the Lord. The worshipper superimposes on the image the Lord and all His attributes. He does Shodasopachara for the idol, the sixteen kinds of paying respects or service to the Lord…The idol speaks. It will answer your questions and solve your problems. The God in you has the power to awaken the latent Divinity in the idolThe awakened Divinity in the idol
acts as a guardian angel blessing all, conferring the highest good on those who bow to it…
The image in the temple at Tirupati assumed human form and gave witness in the court to help His devotees.[6]

 

This is the definition of Idol Worship by a Hindu scholar named Swami Sivananda, We can see many points clearly contradicts the Kaba Idol topic for instance, Allah does not give divinity to any of his creation, and Swami says ”The awakened DIVINITY IN THE IDOL”, We say we don’t worship the Holy Kaba but Swami writes ”BY WORSHIPING AN IDOL, ISHVAR IS PLEASED”, We don’t ask the Kaba hoping that IT (THE KABA) will help us but Swami writes ”THE IDOL SPEAKS. IT WILL ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS AND SOLVE YOUR PROBLEMS”, There are many more points which can be extracted from Swami Sivananda’s book which contradicts the Islamic way of worship.

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

What is idol worship?

Is there any standard definition of idol worship? No, but in broad terms, performing rituals keeping any idol (as described above) as focus in the process of worshipping (any type of worshipping) God may be called as idol worship. Swami Dayanand said that “treating inanimate entities as animates while worshipping is idol worship”. In this way, acts like bowing, kissing, circumambulating, singing songs, prayers in front of any idol (as described above) while worshipping should be considered as idol worship. Or in other words, the acts of treating inanimate entities as animate, without which worship cannot be performed, come under idol worship. This definition of idolatry looks complete and logical.

 

 

RESPONSE:

I have already given the meaning of Idol and Idol Worship above which does not match with the Islamic way of worship, Idol worship in general term which almost all people agrees with is Worshiping any Idol as God/Worshiping the Idol. Agniveer gives a definition of Idol worship as ” performing rituals keeping any idol (as described above) as focus in the process of worshipping (any type of worshipping) God may be called as idol worship” He himself proves Muslims don’t worship the Kaba, Muslims don’t focus on the Kaba while offering Salat, But Hindus place the Idol in front of them to focus on it. Agniveer goes on saying ‘‘ In this way, acts like bowing, kissing, circumambulating, singing songs, prayers in front of any idol (as described above) while worshipping should be considered as idol worship” Why does bowing, circumambulating, praying to in front of the Idol ”WHILE WORSHIPING IT” should be considered Idol worship? Does that mean we can circumambulate, bow or ”Pray To” someone else other than God while ”NOT” worshiping God? Is he saying it because his Vedas commands him to bow before Rishis, so that would become Idol worship, I can just label it as hypocrisy. You cannot use views of so called Vedic scholars to explain Islamic scriptures like Agniveer is saying ‘‘ In this way, acts like bowing, kissing, circumambulating, singing songs, prayers in front of any idol (as described above) while worshipping should be considered as idol worship.” His Dayanand shared some similar views on Idolatry, I will explain why Dayanand gave such definition of Idolatry in this article. When I searched the definition of Idol worship online I got the following definitions

Idol Worship = the worship of idols; the worship of images that are not God

iconolatry – the worship of sacred images

Idolatry
=
1. Worship of idols.

Idolatry = : the worship of a physical object as a god

Idolatry = 1 a material object, esp. a carved image, that is worshipped as a god

 

These are the definitions I got online which I agree to, As a matter of fact my definition for idol worship is also same as above and also to the Puranas

 

Devi Bhagavatam 3.13.49 These S’aktis, capable of bestowing all the desires, will be worshipped IN Pratimâs(images of clay, etc.) in the whole of India.

 

”will be worshipped in Pratimas” means Worshiping the Idols as Gods.

 

But Agniveer gives some other meaning for it, let’s leave it for now because Agniveer makes his own verses and posts his personal views which sometime contradicts the views of his Maharishi Dayanand so why should we take his definition of Idol worship seriously.

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

But the problem with Islam is that like “worship” and “idol”, it has its own definition of “idol worship” that is believed to be ultimate and to be forced down the throats of Non Muslims. First it says any stone other than Kaba which is used by any Non Muslim in prayers is idol, and then it declares that any ritual performed at this idol (idol as per Islam) is idol worship. Now I have problem with this definition by Muslims.

Islamists defined idol worship the way they wanted and killed idolaters. Now its my turn to define idol worship and kill ignorance of Jihadis. Is there anyone who thinks that defining idol worship is the exclusive right of Jihadi butchers alone? Now I make a new definition of idol worship. In the whole world there is only one idol, Kaba! And idol worship means bowing towards the direction of Kaba, kissing it and circumambulating it (I have simply reversed the trend. I include/exclude everything under “idol” and “idol worship” what Jihadis excluded/included in their model of idolatry).  I now declare that Muslims are idol worshippers because

1. Kaba is an idol

 

 

RESPONSE:

All such words sound childish, Why can’t you bring definition of Idolatry from scholars and your books which you call corrupted? Even in the article of Agniveer Kaba Idol Worship we have seen he presented his personal views and not a single verse from Puranas, Manu Smriti, Upanishads or the Vedas to support his arguments. Above I have provided definition of Idol worship from their own Hindu Scholar and I shall define it in much clear lines.

Kaba is not and Idol, No Muslim Scholar says Kaba is an Idol or Kaba is God, they say

Allah’s direction of prayer is the Ka’bah. (And if thou shouldst follow their desires) their religion and direction of prayer (after the knowledge which hath come unto thee) that the Religion of Allah is Islam and His direction of prayer is the Ka’bah – Tafsir ibn Abbas 2:120

Allah says in the Qur’an 2:144 We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now shall We turn thee to a Qiblah that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.

The Holy Kaba is just a Qiblah (Direction) whereas the Hindu scholars says their Idols are Gods or Incarnation of God.

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

 

I know many will label me as fanatic because I first assumed Kaba to be idol and acts like bowing, kissing and circumambulating as worship and then I PROVED that Muslims are idolaters. But what can I do when this is what Muslims do to others? Did not they assume everything except Kaba as idol and everything except bowing, kissing and circumambulating to Kaba as idol worship and then allege every Non Muslim as idolater? Can someone imagine what kind of fanaticism Jihadis have been showing since the inception of Islam? Now to show our Muslim friends what it feels when someone argues with them the same way they argue others, here we are with the comments on the arguments given by Muslims when they are called as idol/Kaba worshippers.

1. We don’t worship Kaba. We worship only Allah.

Comment- No by definition, you worship Kaba, we just PROVED above!

 

 

RESPONSE:

By what definition do you think we worship the Kaba? Where is the proof, I don’t see it anywhere, First the author was supposed to study the definition of Idol Worship and then he should have written this article. We don’t worship the Kaba we Worship Allah alone, It is non sense to say that a idolator does not believe his Idol to be God because Idol worship means believing the idol to be god and we don’t believe the Kaba to be God thus it proves we don’t worship the Kaba. Islam strictly prohibits worshiping Idols or anything besides Allah

29:17 “For ye do worship idols besides Allah, and ye invent Falsehood. the things that ye worship besides Allah have no power to give you sustenance: then seek ye sustenance from Allah, serve him, and be grateful to him: to Him will be your return.

14:30 And They set up (idols) As equal to Allah, to mislead (men) from the Path! say: “Enjoy (your brief power)! but Verily ye are Making straightway for Hell!”

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 1, Book 1, Number 6: Then I asked you what he ordered you to do. You replied that he ordered you to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship any thing along with Him and forbade you to worship idols and ordered you to pray, to speak the truth and to be chaste

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

2. Kaba is only a Kiblah (direction). It is not idol. We bow towards this direction for unity. We bow towards Kaba we don’t bow to Kaba!

Comment- Oh! I wonder how do our Jihadi friends kiss the “direction” and then circumambulate it Question is why you bow towards Kaba? What is the logic other than Allah has commanded this? If commandment of Allah is enough then why this drama of giving arguments to prove that you are not idolater? Simply say we are not idolater because Allah says so! And Non Muslims are idolaters because Allah says so. Game is over! Why need arguments then? And have you ever imagined what will happen if Non Muslims start saying that their idol worship is commanded by their God and thus they do it. What answer do you have for it? The moment you ask for logic, they will ask logic behind direction of worship!

 

RESPONSE:

We don’t kiss the Kaba, we kiss the Black Stone because Prophet Muhammad did so,

Sahih al Bukhari Volume 2, Book 26, Number 667: Narrated ‘Abis bin Rabia:

‘Umar came near the Black Stone and kissed it and said “No doubt, I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit anyone nor harm anyone. Had I not seen Allah’s Apostle kissing you I would not have kissed you.”

 

We have seen from the book of Swami Sivananda that they (the idolators) believe the Idol can answer them and solve their problem, which we don’t believe and Hazrat Umar says ”I know that you are a stone and can neither benefit nor harm anyone” we don’t believe that the Black Stone has the non bestowed power to benefit or harm us otherwise IT WOULD HAVE BEEN idol worship. Is kissing an act of worship? Can Agniveer show us one verse which says kissing is an act of worship? Kissing the Black stone is not obligatory

 

Muslims go to Makkah to glorify God, not to kiss a stone or worship a man or a semi-divinity. Kissing or touching the Black Stone at the Ka`bah is an optional action, not obligatory or prescribed. Those who kiss the Black Stone or touch it do not do it because they have faith in the Stone or attribute any superstitious qualities to it. Their faith is in God only. They kiss, touch or point at the Stone only as a token of respect or a symbol of love for Prophet Muhammad, who laid the Stone at the foundation of the Ka`bah when it was reconstructed. (Source)

Now some Hindus would say Kissing the Black Stone was a pagan ritual, Do they have any authentic proof for this? Kissing is an act of respect, So kissing the Black Stone is also an act of respect because it was sent from Heaven[7], as we have seen above it is not obligatory to kiss the Black Stone, it’s optional, If Muslims worships the Black stone (as the Anti Muslims claims) then it would have been obligatory to kiss it physically as the Idolators adore their Idols physically. The Black Stone is a starting point for circumambulation.

We circumambulate around the Kaba because the Kaba is the Qiblah (Direction) and what is the wisdom behind circumambulation is explained here

 

Circumambulating the Kaaba represents the idea of oneness. Its meaning regarding the social life is not to leave unity and to try to maintain this unity. Its meaning regarding individual life contains deep truths. The sky has seven layers; man has seven souls.
Each turning around the Kaaba represents a phase, a stage; man covers a phase and is elevated up to the seventh sky, above the material realm…  (Source)

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

3. We muslims only bow towards ONE Kaaba unlike hindus who have countless amount of statues, so what have you got to say about that?

Comment- Hindus don’t have any idols we have PROVED that. So Muslims worship Kaba idol whereas Hindus don’t. Even if I agree that Hindus worship idols, we are not having a competition here where the person who worships fewer idols is the winner. Our discussion is about idolatry itself, so whether, you bow towards one, or ten million idols, it does not make a difference here. It is like, if you jump into a pool of water which is 1 meter deep, or you jump into an ocean which is 7 miles deep, either way you will become wet. So, we are discussing whether you become wet or not. In contrast, whether you are an idolater or not.

 

RESPONSE:

 

Even if I agree that Hindus worship idols, we are not having a competition here” What do he mean by such statement, Hindus clearly profess to worship the Idol believing it to be God, Which is contradictory to our way of, Hindus having many idols is a very important point here, Don’t Agniveer know why the Hindus take Idols for worship? A famous verse from Bhagvad Gita can be used in many places in this article to refute the deception of Anti Muslims about Kaba,

”But, greater is the difficulty of those whose minds cling to the Unmanifested; for the goal of the Unmanifested is hard for the embodied being to reach.” Gita 12:5

 

Bhagavad Purana 1.9.41. At the Rajasuya-yajna (sacrifice) performed by Maharaja Yudhisthira, there was the greatest assembly of all the elite men of the world, the royal and learned orders, and in that great assembly Lord Sri Krsna was worshiped by one and all as the most exalted Personality of Godhead [as Idol]. This happened during my presence, and I remembered the incident in order to keep my mind upon the Lord.

Swami Prabhupada states in this verse:
So in that great assembly, Lord Sri Krsna was the cynosure of neighboring eyes. Everyone wanted to see Lord Krsna, and everyone wanted to pay his humble respects to the Lord. Bhismadeva remembered all this and was glad that his worshipful Lord, the Personality of Godhead [Idol], was present before him in His actual formal presence.
So to meditate on the Supreme Lord is to meditate on the activities, form, pastimes, name and fame of the Lord.

That is easier than what is imagined as meditation on the impersonal feature of the Supreme. In the Bhagavad-gita (12.5) it is clearly stated that to meditate upon the impersonal feature of the Supreme is very difficult. It is practically no meditation or simply a waste of time because very seldom is the desired result obtained. The devotees, however, meditate upon the Lord’s factual form and pastimes, and therefore the Lord is easily approachable by the devotees…

42. Now I can meditate with full concentration upon that one Lord, Sri Krsna, now present before me because now I have transcended the misconceptions of duality in regard to His presence in everyone’s heart, even in the hearts of the mental speculators. He is in everyone’s heart. The sun may be perceived differently, but the sun is one.

Bhagavat Purana 11.9.22 If out of love, hate or fear an embodied soul fixes his mind with intelligence and complete concentration upon a particular bodily form, he will certainly attain the form that he is meditating upon

The Idolators uses the Idols for concentration of God, thinking the Idol to be God or form of God, In this way they need Idol in front of them every time they worship as mentioned in Puranas

Devi Bhagavatam 11.23.21-33 … one is to worship one’s own Deity in front
of fire or the image of any god

They must face the Idol, they should ask the Idol, they think the Idol is god, We Muslims don’t have Holy Kaba in the Mosques or houses when we worship, There are Muslims across the globe in USA, in China, in Indonesia which are miles away from the Holy Kaba and we just bow towards the Kaba living far away from it, Can any Idolator keep his Idol In Japan and worship it from England? Some fanatics might say YES due to their stubbornness to accept the truth so my counter question would be how can they concentrate on the Idol? As your own scripture says to keep the Idol for concentration, and several other verses from Puranas says to offer oblations to the Idol (Hindu God), to wash it etc.

It is obligatory for them to offer oblations to the Idol which I think has the origin of Vedas, In the Vedic period people used to offer oblation to the gods while worshiping them[8] and in the Puranas it is said that you should worship the God (Idols of God) by offering the oblations to them

Garuda Purana 13.72-74. Thus he should place the handsful of flowers before the Brahmin and
the image of Hari, and then the bed-gift with its accompaniments, according to the rite.

 

Garuda Purana 112:1
The food is placed near the idol, and passes of the hands are made as though a influence it towards the image.

 

Bhagavat Purana 11:30:7 There we should bathe for purification, fast, and fix our minds in meditation. We should then worship the demigods by bathing their images, anointing them with sandalwood pulp, and presenting them various offerings

 

This is the way Hindus worships the Idol, They offer oblations/offerings to the Idol just like people in the Vedic period used to offer oblations to the Vedic Gods, Does any Muslims offer oblations to the Kaba? Does any Muslims keeps offering near the Kaba, and then says facing the Kaba ”O Allah this is for you, we are presenting this oblation to you please accept it” do any Muslim do that? It is prohibited to present food to the idols or to eat the food which is slaughtered for Idols or brought as offering to the Idol [9]

 

So how can you do all those things (presenting offerings) living miles away from the Idol? The concept of fanatics will not support in any way. The Idol is a must for Hindus for the worship while Muslims even in Masjid Al Haram offer Salat standing many feet high above the Kaba

Look at the red lines, and then at the Kaba, people are standing on second floor of the mosque and offering Salat, Can any Idolator stand on 2nd floor and worship the Idol as his scriptures prescribes him to do? Secondly the Hindus asks the Idol facing it, And It’s not obligatory for Muslims to face the Kaba when we supplicate

…when a person making supplication (du’a) faces the sky–just as those performing the prayer (salat) face the Ka’bah, since the sky is the qiblah of those who supplicate, as the Ka’bah is the qiblah of those who perform the(Sahih Muslim bi Sharh al-Nawawi. 18 vols. Cairo 1349/1930. Reprint (18 vols. in 9). Beirut: Dar al-Fikr, 1401/1981, 5.24)

If Muslims worships the Kaba then we would have commanded to face the Kaba while we supplicate, just like the Hindus faces their Idols while asking them. Imam Ibn Kathir explains on facing the Qiblah while we are uncertain of the position of Kaba

 

Tawaf is done around the Ka`bah and prayer is offered facing its direction in the majority of cases, with a few exceptions, such as when one is uncertain of the direction of the  Qiblah, during battle and when praying optional prayers while traveling. -Tafsir Ibn Kathir on the commentary of verses 22:26-27

Sayyidna Abdullah ibn Aamir ibn Rabi’ah reported from his father that hesaid, “We were travelling with the Prophet -‘–i on a dark night and did not know the direction of the qiblah. So everyone prayed in the direction opposite him. In the morning, we mentioned that to the Prophet (SAW) and the verse was revealed 1)I .m, i L.- (so withersoever you turn, there is Allah’s countenance. – Jamia Al Tirmizi 345

 

If we worship the Kaba then it would been obligatory for us to face Kaba in any way when we are uncertain of the direction. No Idolator can face somewhere else other than his Idol when worshiping it because Idol is used for concentration which must be placed in front of them and they are commanded to do so.

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

4. No Muslim thinks of Kaba stone as God/creator. But Hindus think of their idols as Gods and creator.

Comment- No Hindu thinks his idol (as per your definition) as creator or God. That is why they throw them into rivers after many of their rituals. But as per our definition of idol, Non Muslims don’t have any idols in first place They use some stones to remember God because their God has commanded this. But on the other hand, Muslims worship Kaba idol. They might not think Kaba as their creator but they think it as house of their creator! So again they are found guilty of worshipping house. So they are house worshippers as well in addition to idol.

 

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

Before I proceed to other points, I want to clarify one point which is often raised by Arya Samaji Fanatics i.e., ” That is why they throw them into rivers after many of their rituals.” Hindus submerge only Ganesh Idol with respect not as Agniveer says ”THROW into the rivers” the Hindus says they get bliss by doing it which is Shirk as they believe they get bliss from the Idol and they think the idol will return to heaven, Here is the video of Hindus submerging their Ganesh idol which is called Ganesh Visarjan

httpv://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1JejGdCTsM

 

Can anyone tell me whether the Hindus threw the Idol or immersed it with respect.

 

They might not think Kaba as their creator but they think it as house of their creator! So again they are found guilty of worshipping house. So they are house worshippers as well in addition to idol.” Oh my God, Let me remind Agniveer the definition of Idol Worship

Idol Worship = An Image or Idol of God that is worshiped, Worshiping the Idol ”AS” God.

If someone don’t think their Idol to be God or thinks the Idol does not possess any power then it’s not Idol worship.

 

No Hindu thinks his idol (as per your definition) as creator or God.” It’s just another personal view of Agniveer, We have already seen above from Hindu scholars themselves that the Hindus think theirs Idols to be God, I shall provide you with few more proofs

Chandogya Upanishad Commentary by Shankarcharya on 12.1.4 … think of the name as Brahman, and meditate upon it, just as people worship the idol, thinking it to be Vishnu Himself.

 

To the worshipper who believes the symbol, any kind of image is the body of the Lord under the form of stone, clay, brass, picture, Saligrama, etc. Such worship can never be idolatry. All matter is a manifestation of God. God is present in everything which exists. Everything is an object of worship, for all is a manifestation of God who is therein worshipped. – All About Hinduism Pg 72, By Swami Sivananda

 

Swami Sivananda like many other Hindus is going to the extent and saying they don’t worship the Idol but they worship the God because Idol is also a manifestation/Form of God who is therein worshiped

[Note: The Sanskrit word used in Bhagwat Purana is अर्चा (Arca/archa) and प्रतिमा (Pratima) which is translated as Idol, Image or Deity Form]

 

Sanskrit version: dravyaiḥ prasiddhair mad-yāgaḥ pratimādiṣv amāyinaḥ bhaktasya ca yathā-labdhair hṛdi bhāvena caiva hi

 

Bhagavat Purana 11.27.15 One should worship Me in My Deity forms [Pratima] by offering the most excellent paraphernalia. But a devotee completely freed from material desire may worship Me with whatever he is able to obtain…

 

Garuda Purana 12.6-10. One should make a golden image of Visnu, a silver one of Brahma, a copper one of Rudra, and an iron one of Yama, O Bird. To the west there should be a pot filled with Ganges water for Visnu; and upon it one should place Visnu, clad in yellow robes. To the east there should be a pot of milk and water for Brahma; and there one should place Brahma, clad in white robes. To the north there should be a pot of honey and clarified butter for Rudra, and there one should place Rudra, clad in red robes.

The above verse does not say ”To the east there should be a pot of milk and water for BRAHMA’S IDOL” rather it says ”there should be a pot of milk and water FOR BRAHMA” This implies the Hindu scripture means the Idols are Gods themselves.

 

”Therefore, the bhakti-yogi accepts the Deity of Krishna as worshipable because there is some bodily conception fixed in the mind, which can thus be applied. Of course, worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead in His form within the temple is not idol worship. There is evidence in the Vedic literature that worship may be saguna and nirguna—of the Supreme possessing or not possessing attributes. Worship of the Deity in the temple is saguna worship, for the Lord is represented by material qualities. But the form of the Lord, though represented by material qualities such as stone, wood or oil paint,
is not actually material. That is the absolute nature of the Supreme LordGod has an authorized representation in the Deity form [Idol], which is called arca-vigraha. This arca-vigraha is an incarnation of the Supreme Lord

Commentary by Srila Prabhupada on Gita 12:5”

Srila Prabhupada says the same as Swami Sivananda that Hindus don’t worship Idols but they worship God because the Idol is not a material but it is a nature/form of the God.

 

Bhagwat Purana 11.27.12 The Deity form[Idol] of the Lord is said to appear in eight varieties — stone, wood, metal, earth, paint, sand, the mind or jewels.

Bhagwat Purana 11.27.12 śailī dāru-mayī lauhī lepyā lekhyā ca saikatī mano-mayī maṇi-mayī pratimāṣṭa-vidhā smṛtā

 

Swami Prabhupada states: Śrīla Jīva Gosvāmī explains that certain Deity forms, such as those made of sand, are manifested for a brief time to fulfill a personal desire of the worshiper. Those, however,
who desire to attain pure love of God should worship the permanent form of the Deity (made, for instance, of marble, gold or brass), and they should maintain continual worship. In Kṛṣṇa consciousness there is no scope for neglecting the worship of the Supreme Personality of Godhead.

 

 

Bhagwat Purana 11.27.48 arcādiṣu yadā yatra śraddhā māḿ tatra cārcayet sarva-bhūteṣv ātmani ca sarvātmāham avasthitaḥ

 

Bhagwat Purana 11.27.48 Whenever one develops faith in Me in My form [Idol] as the Deity or in other bona fide manifestations one should worship Me in that form. I certainly exist both within all created beings and also separately in My original form, since I am the Supreme Soul of all.

Swami Prabhupada states: The Supreme Personality of Godhead is worshiped according to the faith of a particular worshiper. The Deity form, arcā, is specifically mentioned here because Deity worship is essential for spiritual progress. Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura mentions that inexperienced persons may think that the Deity [Idol] is meant for the sense gratification of the worshiper, since superficially the Deity [Idol] is made of external substances such as marble or brass. But through the process of installing the Deity by chanting of authorized mantras, one invites the Supreme Personality of Godhead to enter the Deity form [Idol]. By regulated, faithful worship one gradually understands that the Deity [Idol] is completely nondifferent from the Supreme Lord Himself

 

So the Hindu God appears in eight varieties and they are his forms/incarnations, All these things  proves the Hindus believe their Idol to be God. The Idolators make the Idol with their hands, even at that time they don’t consider the idol to be God, They say the idol becomes God after it is being installed properly according to their rites and by reciting few Mantras and they say after reciting some Mantras the God comes into the Idol.

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

5. At the time of Muhammad, people used to stand on Kaba and give Adhan. Which idol worshipper can do this to his idol?

Comment- Islamic idol worshipper Muslims are free to do whatever they want with their idol. What can we say?

 

RESPONSE:

Does this make any sense, I will say the Arya Samajis are Solar System worshipers, because whenever they sit for meditation they would face Sky or Earth which are parts of the Solar System, Will they except to be Solar System worshipers? If they are accusing us of Idolatry then the our (Islamic) way of worship must match with Idolators way of worship otherwise it cannot be regarded as Idolatry.

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

6. O Hindus! Why to bow down to idols when it can neither benefit you nor harm you?

Comment- It is proven that Hindus don’t worship idols (as per our definition of idolatry). They don’t have idols in first place. They only worship God almighty. But question is why Muslims worship Kaba idol? Can it slap the one who spits on it or kiss the one who loves it? If no, then why our Muslim friends worship Kaba idol?

 

RESPONSE:

‘ It is proven that Hindus don’t worship idols” Really? Then could you please explain me these verses?

Garuda Purana 17-.19. Then the son should place upon the bed a golden image/Idol,
and having worshiped it
[The Idol]

 

Devi Bhagavatam 3.24.19 O sinless one! Establish my image in this city and worship it [The Idol] three times, morning, mid-day and evening carefully and with devotion

 

These verses from Puranas makes all doubts clear, The Hindus Indeed worship their Idols.

Dayanand said

The verse which they chant at the time of offering worship is written on page 92 of the Ratnasar Bhaga. Ti means, “May we worship the (idols of) the Tirthankars – who had completely mastered their passions and offer to them water, sandal, rice, flowers, incense.” This is the reason why we say that idol-worship is originated with the Jainees. Satyarth Prakash pg 562

 

Dayanand also said that ” They too, whom you call image-worshippers, do not regard the image as God. They profess to worship God behind the image” Now you can see how Dayanand contradicted himself, Works of half cooked scholars like Dayanand will tend to have errors, so it’s not my problem. But the above quotation from Satyarth shows the Idolators worships the Idols

 

” But question is why Muslims worship Kaba idol? Can it slap the one who spits on it or kiss the one who loves it?” Did any Muslim claimed the Kaba will punish one who spits on it?

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

From the above replies, one can estimate how easy it becomes to argue when you take in assumption what you have to prove already! This is what Muslims do. First assume that Non Muslims are idolaters and they themselves are not and then start arguing as if they are universal monotheists and Non Muslims are universal idolaters/polytheists. This is ridiculous. Muslims need to come out of this hypocrisy soon because it is not going to last for a longer period now. Here is one example of a man suffering from circular logic syndrome, Zakir Naik, who is known more for his nexus with anti Indian elements than Islamic preaching, sharing his views on idolatry of Hindus.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0OpCIBZ_sw

 

MY RESPONSE:

Islam is the true monotheistic religion on earth, Anti Muslims keeps on attacking Islam and all their arguments are being refuted. Agniveer thinks his statements are strong enough to  ”EXPOSE” other religions. Not to forget Agniveer won’t end his article without criticizing Dr. Naik. The Arya Samajis are fanatics from the foundation of their sect, at that time they just criticized and had no reason to reply to why they are criticizing other religions, As now Dr. Naik brings some comparative studies of religions, these Arya Samajis have got a nice reason to criticize Islam, Though they cannot show a single line of Dr. Zakir Naik criticizing Vedas yet they consider him to be Anti Hindu.

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

On the argument that idols are used by Hindus only for concentration, Zakir says that those people who have lower level of consciousness need idols. But we Muslims have already reached the higher level of consciousness and thus we don’t need idols.

We have nothing to say on idol worship-consciousness issue. What we are interested in is Zakir’s logic behind lower consciousness of Hindus. One can ask few questions to the highly conscious Zakir here

1. Muslims as community are found at the bottom of the list of progressive communities worldwide. Highly conscious Muslims are nowhere found in the pool of eminent scientists/mathematicians. Is it due to the lower consciousness of the Kafir scientists and mathematicians that Muslims don’t want to share pool with them? If Zakir Bhai could ponder…

 

RESPONSE:

Now Agniveer has gone back to his habit of diverting the topic, is this article about Idol worship or about Muslims, in some parts of India such as Karnataka, Uttar Pradesh, Kerala… there is more Muslim literacy rate than the Hindus. These Hindus talks about progressive community as if India is a developed nation. By the grace of Muslims, India has gained a lot of things, India owe the Muslims, there is endless list of what Muslims have done for India. The Hindus should not be too happy, because much of the inventions and discoveries of India is contributed by Muslims and Buddhists in India and not by Hindus alone. Here you can find what famous Indian personalities said about Muslims http://www.islamawareness.net/Quotes/quote4.html This is a very old arguments of Hindus of talking about Muslim’s progression, I don’t want to write anything about it right now because its unrelated to the topic, I will just provide some links

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/how-islamic-inventors-changed-the-world-469452.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_scientists

you can compare the list of Muslim and Hindu scientists http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_scientists

Muslim countries are in the top wealthiest countries in the world http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2010/11/19/the-10-richest-countries-in-the-world/

there are dozens of Arab nations who has more literacy rate than USA and UK such as Kazakhstan, Albania, Azerbaijan…

 

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

2. I wonder @ country of almost 100% population of highly conscious Momins (Somalia) that has highest number of pirates Seems there is some relation b/w Islamic consciousness and piracy!

 

RESPONSE:

All such pirates and terrorist organization are created by Anti Muslims, for instance Al Qaeda was made by USA, similarly the Somalian Pirates are financially supported by western agencies, If a country faces more terrorist attacks then it will tend to have more illiteracy rate even though Palestine whose people hears the sound of bomb blasts everyday has the literacy rate of 93.3%. Hindus are jealous of Muslims with our conversion rate, with the developed Arab Nations and the Muslims found in each and every part of the world, so to satisfy their jealousy they start talking about Somalia, But do they forget about Nepal? Which has 80% of Hindu population, how many scientists did Nepal made except for producing Watchmen. Can any Hindu have explanation for this?

 

 

AGNVIEER WROTE:

3. Proclaiming high consciousness for self is not a smart idea anyway. Because as Zakir claims there is no need for Muslims to concentrate as they are already in higher consciousness, some Muslim might claim some day that I don’t need to worship Allah because I already remember Him all the time! What will happen then?

 

MY RESPONSE:

Worship is obligatory for Muslims, No Muslim can say ”we don’t need to worship” It’s one of the five pillars of Islam to offer Salat 5 times a day.

because I already remember Him all the time” Remembering Allah is called Zikr, it is also a kind of worship other than Salat. Agniveer thinks Salat means remembering God, Salat has many definitions as I stated earlier other than remembering Allah.

 

AGNIVEER WROTE:

Actually Talibani ideology has severely damaged the analytical skills of Zakir Bhai. When someone says he needs to concentrate, it does not mean that he/she is of lower consciousness. Rather it means that he/she wants to uplift the current state of mind further to reach higher goals. It is similar to a scientist sitting alone in a peaceful room trying to concentrate on some topic. But Zakir Bhai will think of him as a man of lower consciousness or a psychiatric patient who can’t concentrate!

 

 

MY RESPONSE:

 

I quoted from a book above which says ” Image-worship is very necessary for beginners” which shows the person who wants to concentrate on the Idol is of lower consciousness. If he is using the Idol for concentration then it means he is of lower consciousness because he would rather think about the form of God in his mind and worships the God, There is a good explanation for Agniveer from a commentary on GP,

Bhagwat Purana. Commentary on 7.14.39 by Swami Prabhupada For those who cannot properly appreciate the activities of authorized devotees, Deity worship is the only way for spiritual advancement. In the Caitanya-caritämåta (Antya 7.11) it is clearly said, kåñëa-çakti vinä nahe tära pravartana: without being authorized by Kåñëa, one cannot preach the holy name of the Lord throughout the entire world. Nevertheless, a devotee who does so is criticized by neophyte devotees, kaniñöha-adhikärés, who are on the lower stages of devotional service. For them, Deity worship [arca/Idol Worship] is strongly recommended

Can Agniveer now answer who needs Idol worship? People who are of lower consciousness needs Idol worship, after they become perfect focusing on the Form of their lord, theirs concentration power is advanced as mentioned by Swami ” Deity worship is the only way for spiritual advancement”. One commentary from Puranas will help you understand it

Srimad Bhagavatam 4.30.27 Commentary by Swami Prabhupada: The form of the Lord as worshiped in the temples is called arca-vigraha or arcavatara, the worshipable form [Idol Worship],
the Deity incarnation. This facility is offered to neophyte devotees so that they can see the real form of the Lord face to face and offer their respectful obeisances and sacrifices in the form of arca. Through such facilities the neophytes gradually invoke their original Krsna consciousness. Deity worship in the form of temple worship is the most valuable benediction given by the Lord to beginners. All neophytes must therefore engage in the worship of the Lord by keeping the arca-vigraha (arcavatara)[Idol] at home or in the temple.

 

The Arya Samajis and other Anti Muslim fanatics are accusing us of worshiping the Kaba on the basis that we the Muslims bow to the Kaba so it is worship (according to their definition), If it’s all about bowing then why don’t they accept to be Rishi and the Arya Samaji women to be Husband worshipers because their own Vedas commands them to bow to Rishis and women to their Husbands

Rig Veda 1.139. 9 … I bow down with song, to Indra, Agni, bow with song.

Atharva Veda 18.2.2 …  Bow down before the Rishis of the olden time, the ancient ones who made the path.

 

Rig Veda 5.36. 6 Maruts, let all the people in obeisance bow down before this youthful Srutaratha

Some fanatics replies to this by saying ‘‘We are not worshiping while bowing to them, We bow to them because to respect them” Do we kiss the Black Stone to worship it? We kiss it because it’s an act of respect, why do they forget this why do they have such hypocrisy? They say they bow because it’s an act of respecting, first let me give the definition Idolatry according to Dayanad

‘To bow down before an material object or worship it is idolatry” [Satyarth Prakash pg 445]

The above reference from Satyarth Prakash says to ANY MATERIAL OBJECT, the cloth we wear is also a material as Agniveer also gives the definition of idol as anything that we can touch and see, so does that mean the people used to worship the cloths of Rishis? Or were the Rishis used to stand naked while people bowed before them? We should use their own concept to refute them, so now they might say ‘‘no we don’t bow down to the cloths we bow down to the rishis” as I said we should use their own concept, we should reply ”the Idolators says the same that they don’t bow down to the idol but they bow down to the God” , Now wouldn’t this make the Vedic followers as Cloth Worshipers?

The Kaba Idol topic is the most favorite topic of Arya Samajis, You can see it yourself by reading the comments in this site and other sites, after each and every discussion no matter what the topic is, suddenly they divert it to ”You are Kaba Idol worshipers, You Idolator” topic, as usual they lose in this topic too which is their most favorite topic and the last thing they say after losing is ”Break the Kaba to prove you don’t worship it” Agniveer had also said this
If Kaba is just a Kibla (direction),
can Zakir Naik hammer it down
just like his Arab masters did with the idols of Hindus while they invaded India? (If anyone is hurt by this, please read those verses of Quran which order Muslims to break idols of others and kill the idolaters)”, What will they do if we Muslims break the Kaba or have broken it earlier? Will they admit we don’t worship the Kaba and later accept our challenges on their Monotheism? The Sahabas brought the Kaba to ground level after it was burned when people of Sham raided Mecca

Ibn Az-Zubayr rebuilds Al-Ka`bah the way the Prophet wished (Source)

Ibn Az-Zubayr did not touch the House until the people came for Hajj, for he wanted to incite them against the people of Ash-Sham. He said to them, `O people! Advise me regarding the Ka`bah, should we bring it down and rebuild it, or just repair the damage it sustained… When the three days had passed, he decided to bring the Ka`bah down. The people hesitated to bring it down, fearing that the first person to climb on the House would be struck down. A man went on top of the House and threw some stones down, and when the people saw that no harm touched him, they started doing the same. They brought the House down to ground level. – Tafsir ibn Kathir

The Kaba was just damaged, the Sahabas (Companions of Prophet) could have repaired it, but instead they BROUGHT KABA TO GROUND LEVEL, Just think about it, there were no latest machines available 1400 years ago so it must have taken a lot of time to rebuild the Kaba and people still offered Salat.

 

The Kaba was again brought down to and then was rebuilt again Abdul-Malik wrote back, `We do not agree with Ibn Az- Zubayr’s actions. As, for the Ka`bah’s height, leave it  as it is. As for what he added from the  Hijr, bring it  down, and build the House as it was before and close the door.’  Therefore, Al-Hajjaj brought down the House and rebuilt it as it was.” – Ibid

 

We also find a story about rebuilding the Ka’bah during Prophet Muhammad S.A.W’s time [10]. Can the Idolators break their Idol? No! because they think their Idols are Gods, Even if their Idols are absent then they are commanded to make a form and then worship it[11] this shows Idol is very necessary for them, The Kaba was brought down to ground level twice by the companions of Prophet and also by Prophet himself and people still offered Salat, So it’s impossible to worship the Kaba without its presence. Hence this proves we Muslims are not Idolators and we don’t worship the Kaba.

 

 

 

As I said earlier if Islamic way of worship is Idolatry then it must match with Idolators way of worship, because if a teacher is accusing his/her student of copying from another student’s answer paper then both of their answers must match with each other. It is not necessary to keep on writing several lines to prove Muslims don’t worship the Kaba, Just three points are enough to refute the claim of anti Muslims on ”Muslims worships the Kaba”

 

1)      1) Hindus uses the Idol for concentration and it must be in front of them

 

”But, greater is the difficulty of those whose minds cling to the Unmanifested; for the goal of the Unmanifested is hard for the embodied being to reach.” Gita 12:5

 

Bhagavat Purana 11.9.22 If out of love, hate or fear an embodied soul fixes his mind with intelligence and complete concentration upon a particular bodily form, he will certainly attain the form that he is meditating upon.

 

Devi Bhagavatam 11.23.21-33 … one is to worship one’s own Deity in front
of fire or the image of any god

 

2)       2)Hindus believe the Idols are forms of God or God himself present in the Idol

 

Bhagwat Purana 11.27.12 The Deity form[Idol] of the Lord is said to appear in eight varieties — stone, wood, metal, earth, paint, sand, the mind or jewels.

 

Bhagwat Purana 11.27.48 Whenever one develops faith in Me in My form as the Deity [Idol] or in other bona fide manifestations one should worship Me in that form. I certainly exist both within all created beings and also separately in My original form, since I am the Supreme Soul of all.

 

3)      3) Hindu scripture commands to worship the Idol as a form of God

Devi Bhagavatam 3.24.19 O sinless one! Establish my image in this city and worship it [The Idol] three times, morning, mid-day and evening carefully and with devotion

 

Now let’s analyze whether the Arya Samajis are Idolators or not,

 

Agniveer wrote in his article that ” Idol is a material object that is used to perform rituals in prayers by anyone. It can be anything that is tangible. For example, a statue, a picture, a stone, books, etc

Then he explained Idol Worship that suits his way

Swami Dayanand said that “treating inanimate entities as animates while worshipping is idol worship”. In this way, acts like bowing, kissing, circumambulating, singing songs, prayers in front of any idol (as described above) while worshipping should be considered as idol worship.”

 

All of us know very well that one of the Veda called Atharva Veda is a book of prayers and supplications, While reading it for the first time you would read from the book by facing it which contains prayers and you would read the prayers facing the book, so wouldn’t that become Idol worship as per the definitions given by Agniveer team? Now they might talk about intentions, they might say ”we were not intended to worship Veda while reading prayers from it”,  Some Muslims said the same thing but Arya Samajis went on diverting the topics. According to the Islamic perspectives if someone believes that there is other being which possesses non-bestowed attributes of Allah then it is Shirk, And the teachings of Dayanand promotes Shirk, Now let’s compare our view to the views of Arya Samajis just like they do it in their articles, Dayanand said

 

40. Are the Vedas eternal or non-eternal?

A.- They are eternal. God being eternal, His knowledge and attributes must necessarily be eternal, because the nature, attributes and character of an eternal substance are also eternal and vice versa. – Satyarth Prakash pg 241

 

 

Vixter who is one of the team member of Agniveer/Satyagni sites wrote in a comment

 

”Why do you have to write long baseless nonsense essays? Just think of it logically. Can I believe in Allah alone and escape suffering?? If yes, then people like Zakir Naik claim that I will burn in hell because I refused to believe in Mohammad or refused to think of him or take his name while I pray to Allah=> If No, then Islam is not a monotheistic religion. Allah is one entity and Mohammad is another entity, now Mono means “one” so islam does not have the right to call itself Monotheism if one has to believe in Mohammad as well>>>> We can only promise to believe in one entity, but if we are told to believe in Mohammad as well then that makes it two entities hence Islam cannot be monotheistic religion? Get my point.Islam will only be monotheistic if we believe in Allah alone without believing in Mohammad (either as a messenger, prophet, angel, or any other agent to God).As per Vedic Dharam, I do not have to believe in the rishis, I can alone just remember Ishwar and Ishwar only.”

 

My Response: Dayanand wrote in his book

3. How many entities are eternal or beginningless….Q.What are your authorities for this statement?

A.- “Both God and the soul are eternal, they are alike in consciousness and such other attributes.  They are associated together – God pervading the soul – and are mutual companions.
Satyarth Prakash pg 241-

 

If we use Vixter’s concept here then he is a worshiper of three entities they are God, Soul and Prakriti because they are ‘‘Mutual Companions” and according to Vixter if there are 2 entities then it is polytheism. Also if he is supposed to believe in Ishwar and Ishwar only then why does the Vedas commands to kill the person who rejects Vedas?

Atharva Veda 12:5:62 Kill the people by cutting them by tearing them by burning them into ashes by blowing those who reject the Vedas.

 

Just like the Arya Samajis challenged us to break the Kaba to prove we don’t worship it so now they should disrespect their God (The Vedas) to prove they don’t worship the Vedas.

 

 

In Satyarth Prakash Dayanand quoted couple of verses to show prohibition of Idol Worship, Here I will quote only one verse because the rest of the verses were taken from Keno Upanishad which is  not authoritative text according to Agniveer Samajis,

 

Q. – If the Vedas do not explicitly sanction idol-worship, they do not condemn the practice either. If they do condemn it, the inference is clear that the practice must have existed in ancient times, for it has been said, “Only that can be condemned which prevails.”

A. ~ Of course there is no sanction for this practice (in the Veda and the Shaastraas), but on the other hand it is positively condemned thus:-

(1) “They are enveloped in darkness, in other words, are steeped in ignorance and sunk in the greatest depths of misery who worship the uncreated, eternal prakriti – the material cause of the world – in place of the All-pervading God, but those who worship visible things born of the prakriti, such as the earth, trees, bodies (human and the like) in place of God are enveloped in still greater darkness, in other words, they are extremely foolish, fall into an awful hell of pain and sorrow, and suffer terribly for a long time.” YAJUR VEDA 40: 9.

 

Now let’s have a look what the Vedas says

 

Rig Veda 1.27.1 WITH worship will I glorify thee, Agni, like a long-tailed steed,Imperial Lord of sacred rites.

 

Rig Veda 2.2.1 WITH sacrifice exalt Agni who knows all life;
worship him ‘with oblation
and the song of praise…

 

Rig Veda 4.17.18 …Indra, we the priests have paid thee worship, exalting thee with these our sacrifices.

 

According to Vedas Indra and Agni were born[12].  If Yajur Veda 40.9 is a verse prohibiting Idol Worship then other verses permits and even recommends Idol Worship as Agni, Earth and other Deities are born out of Prakriti (Material) which is Idol worship. Agniveer said ” So idol is anything concrete we can touch and see” In this way even the fire would become an Idol, now we will see what the Vedas says about Fire worship

Rig Veda 1.45.1 I WORSHIP the Vasus, Agni! here, the Rudras, the Adityas, all Who spring from Manu, those who know fair rites, who pour their blessings down.

 

Rig Veda 5.28.6 Invoke and worship Agni while the sacrificial rite proceeds…

 

This would not become Fire worship but Idol worship according to Agniveer’s statement, Agniveer said ” Oh!
I wonder how do our Jihadi friends kiss the “direction” and then circumambulate it”

 

If Circumambulating and Kissing means Idol worship then the Vedas strictly commands to worship Idols

 

Rig Veda 7.1.16 This is the Agni invoked in many places: Whom the prince, presenting oblations to, kindles, whom the ministrant priest circumambulates at sacrifices.

 

Rig Veda 5.60.1 …circumambulating (the fire), may I exalt the praise of the Maruts.

 

Rig Veda 4.6.4-5 …Agni, the offerer of the oblation, ancient and multiplying (the offerings) thrice circumambulates (the victim) like a keeper of cattle…Agni, the sacrifices, the exhilarator, the sweet spoken, the object of the sacrifice, moving measuredly, circumambulates (the victim) of his own (accord)…

 

Rig Veda 10.80.5 With songs of praise the Rsis call on Agni; on Agni, heroes worsted in the foray. Birds flying in the region call on Agni around a thousand cattle Agni wanders.

 

The above two verses says Agni circumambulated thousand cattle, Does that mean Agni worshipped cattle?

 

[Horace] Rig Veda 1.144.1 The ministering priest, (qualified) by experience, and possessing exalted and graceful devotion, proceeds (to celebrate) his, (Agni’s), worship,having circumambulated (the altar), he takes up the ladles which are first to present the oblations.

Rig Veda 10.114.4 With simple heart I have beheld him from anear: his Mother kisses him and he returns her kiss

The Vedas talks about circumambulating Agni and other things, if circumambulation is worship then Arya Samajis are Idol worshipers because they circumambulate cattle, Maruts (Air), Agni etc. which are born out of Prakriti and we can touch and see them (except for air), Also if kissing is an act of worship then the Vedas says to worship son and mother as it talks about kiss between the mother and son+. According to Islamic perspective invoking other things besides Allah like invoking Stone, Fire, Earthly gods… is Shirk and the Vedas speaks about invoking Agni

 

Rig Veda1.12.2 With callings ever they invoke Agni, Agni, Lord of the House, Oblation-bearer, much beloved

 

Rig Veda 5.28.6 Invoke and worship Agni while the sacrificial rite proceeds…

 

Rig Veda 3.26.2 That Agni, bright, Vaisvanara, we invoke for help, and Matarisvan worthy of the song of praise…

 

Now some Hindus might argue that this is not Idol worship, Even if we admit this is not Idol worship as per definition given by Maharishi Agniveer of Agniveer Samaj then it is a major sin according to Yajur Veda 40.9 which says not to worship the things born out of Prakriti (Material, Nature, Matter…), And even a child knows Fire (Agni) is born out of Prakriti

Sam Veda 1.1.1.9 When he enkindles Agni, man should with his heart attend the song:I kindle Agni till he glows.

 

According to the early Muslim scholars believing Allah is embodied is Idol worship[13] and Vedas speaks of organs of deities

 

Rig Veda 1.62.12
Strong God, the riches which thy hands have holden from days…

 

 

Atharva Veda 11.1.12 Rest in the roaring frame of wood: be parted from husk and  chaff, ye Sacrificial Fibres.  May we surpass in glory all our rivals.
I cast beneath my feet  the men who hate us.

Yajur Veda 4.10 … Thou art the womb of Indra…

 

 

Yajur Veda 11.
29 … the womb of Agni…

Atharva Veda 3.13.4 One only God set foot on you flowing according to your will

Rig Veda 1.82.6 With holy prayer I yoke thy long-maned pair of Bays: come hitherward; thou holdest them in both thy hands.

 

Rig Veda 10.82.6 It rested set upon the Unborn’s navel, that One wherein abide all things existing.

 

Rig Veda 10.90.12 The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made. His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced

 

Rig Veda 4.32.23 Like two slight images of girls, unrobed, upon a new-wrought post, So shine the Bay Steeds in their course.

 

This implies Idols were created during the Vedic period and could also be worshiped for concentration, This verse is used by the Orthodox Hindu scholars to show Idol Worship in Vedas.

 

 

 

[1] Atharva Veda 12:5:62, Yajur Veda 6:2, Rig Veda 3.18.2 , Yajur Veda 29:39

[2]
Tafsir Ibn Abbas [29:17]

[3]
Tafsir Ibn Kathir- ”so seek from Allah your provision”, This emphasizes the idea of asking Allah Alone. This is like the Ayat: You (Alone) we worship, and You (Alone) we ask for help. (1:5)

[4]
Ibn Maajah (1853) Mishkaat, pg. 286, Fatwa Razviya vol 10, Page 180

[5]
Tauheed and Shirk pg 7, By Allama Moulana Sayyed  Ahmed Saeed Kazmi Shah Saheb

[6]
All About Hinduism pg 70-74, By Sri Swami Sivananda

[7]
Al Tirmizi 878

[8]
Rig Veda 1.36.2, 1.153.1, 1.91.19

[9]
Malik’s Muwatta Book 20, Number 20.51.176, and that on which Allah’s Name has not been mentioned while slaughtering (that which has  been slaughtered as a sacrifice for others than Allah, or has been slaughtered for idols – Tafsir Ibn Kathir

[10]
Sahih al Bukhari Book 58, Hadith # 170

[11] Devi Purana 3.26.21-22

[12]
Rig Veda 10.90.13

[13]
Iljam al-`awam `an `ilm al-kalam pg. 26 by Imam al-Ghazzali rahimahullah, Usool al-Deen pg. 337 by Imam Abu Mansoor ‘Abd al-Qaahir al-Baghdaadi

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